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joechgo11



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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:36 am

cincy wrote:

Anyway……………..if you run the numbers on the Washington Post computation that basket posted, it is apparent that unless your personal income is more than $250,000 a year, there is not a lot of increased taxes involved (and not that much even then.) If your income is more than $250,000 a year, I think it is a pretty safe bet that you are not among the uninsured women, children and those with pre-existing conditions who benefit from universal health care. I would even venture to say that if you are a disabled person, your chances of even having a $250,000 annual income are pretty slim. (Of course, we know there are inspirational exceptions to that but that is very rare.)

So, have we become such a selfish nation that the degree and quality of health care is denied to those who likely need it most? If so, it really does contradict the most relevant statement ever made by Jefferson. The one regarding certain inalienable rights, not the least of which is an equal right to life. Take away an ill person’s equal entitlement to life, a healthy life not dependent upon whether they cn receive necessary medical care or are forced to live their life with a condition that could be fixed if only they had insurance …then the other two liberties Jefferson held most dear …. Liberty and the pursuit of happiness…have absolutely NO chance at all.

Cincy, I know I said that I wasn't going to comment, but these quotes sort of demand a response. First of all, that whole $250K limit has been tossed around before. Obama made that promise during his campaign, yet taxes have been levied on people far below that. If you add in the tobacco tax, which demographically affects lower income families more than upper income, and that entire promise floats away. His numbers just don't add up. To quote my dad, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

Also, the last thing this nation is is selfish. Americans far and away are the most generous nation, not just in total dollars given but per capita as well. We ALL want the best for people, we disagree on THE MEANS of reaching that end. This nation was founded on the principles of limited government, and those principles built this nation into the most prosperous on earth. We now have a president who openly disdains such notions. God help us all.

People told me, "Give him a chance" when the election came and I was so disheartened. I remember saying I hope I'm wrong. I wasn't wrong then. He has brought socialism to a new high in this country. My only hope is that when faced with this brave new world, Americans open their eyes and see what it is they are giving up. There's no such thing as a free lunch, no matter how convicted the speaker of such words may be. Someone is going to have to pay for this; do we really not know who it's going to be?
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:31 am

the cost of this health care bill is going to break this country. Obama can claim that it won't by making huge cuts in Medicare which will offset the cost of this program. Who in their right mind actually believes that the cuts are going to happen. No one that I know of. This is a disaster waiting to happen. Has nothing to do with fear I believe it will happen. You can't ram a bill through in 36 hours, not let congress go home to talk to their constituents for fear they will not vote the way Obama, Pelosi and Reid want it done and claim it was done for us. America is upset over what is happening. One by one our rights are being taken away. Why not reform the bill starting with the insurance companies and their costs, that isn't even mentioned in thisbill. I am not sure the Supreme court won't overturn it. I at least believe it will go before them and then we will see how it turns out. I have nothing against all Americans being insured but it has to be done in an open manner with Americans seeing how we came to each step and not behind closed doors giving things away to congressmen for their votes. I'm glad some of you are happy with this bill. I am not and I hope it can be stopped before it becomes law and then lets sit down and come up with a real solution to health care costs like buying across state lines, trying to curtail costs in hospitals and lets not forget the high cost of law suits in this country and how much it costs for drs. to be insured. None of that is in this bill. What is in this bill is lets insure everyone and figure out the costs later. If this becomes law i believe we are going to see everyone sometime after november see a general tax increase to cover this cost.s There is no way its going to stop at the ones making 250k. I work in a hospital setting and we see many coming in who don't have insurance not even medical assistance which is available to them. We ask them did you apply No its to much work. Unbelievable. You can't make people who have no more interest in getting insurance get it. You have to be willing to put some effort into it. So the hospitals emply someone who goes around to the bedside to put their paperwork in. They come back later a year or two later and guess what no insurance why they left it run out to much work to sign the paper to keep it going. If this isn't automatic for these indivuals i am guessing its not going to work any better than medical assistance. We all have to take responsibility for helping ourselves and to not make individuals take some responsibility to make sure they continue with their healthcare is ridiculous.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:56 am

I work in a hospital setting too. And have heard for YEARS hospital staff bad mouth all those people who walk in the door without insurance. Using the emergency room as their "doctor". Coming in for their 3rd baby at age 18 - all without insurance. Yep, we COMPASSIONATE Americans (sarcasm) often bad mouth people who aren't as good as "we" are.

Check out the education of the people who are uninsured. Yep, largely uneducated. In this wonderful country. When you are uneducated, you can't read or read well - getting insurance requires forms (to fill out and read), appointments (to get to when you don't have a car or don't know the bus route or have to haul 3 small children to the bus stop in snowy conditions) and a whole lot of rigamarole. Give proof of this, give proof of that. Understand this, understand that. Many CAN'T. Some can.

I could go on and on. I don't buy that we "all want what's best for people". Many are selfish and becoming MORE selfish. Me, me, me.

What we have ISN'T working! It's a problem passed from generation to generation, president to president. No president, no person, no senate, no congress, no state legislature, NO ONE could solve this problem (and others) in a fair way to please even a decent majority. You have to start building somewhere - you have to take a step forward with some direction. There will be roadblocks and detours - and you have to put on your shoes and keep walking. I believe that is what our leadership - not just one person - is trying to do.

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abasketclayse
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:02 pm

Morgan, should this be moved to the Kitchen???

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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:27 pm

~
Try working in a California hospital where about 1 in 5 births is an illegal immigrant giving birth to a new citizen and staking their lifelong claim to live in our country. . . and the medical care is free.

I appreciate all the hard work to see that everyone has access to medical care but I wish the president would wake up and see that our country is being occupied by a foreign land and will soon pay the price for that. I'd recommend to each of you that your children need to learn Spanish because we will within their lifetimes be an English speaking minority in our own country and their jobs may come to depend on it. Already in California you can not get many, many jobs if you are not bi-lingual. You can't even work at a Denny's restaurant if you don't speak Spanish.

There are already more Spanish speaking residents of California than English speaking. We are outnumbered. Americans everywhere are rapidly becoming outnumbered and in my view . . . civil war looms in the future.

I love the Spanish people. You can ask anyone I work with in the hospital. The Spanish speaking people all say hello to me each day and associate with me. The others I work with find it odd that I take the time to know them. They are hard working, wonderful people that are just looking for a better life. And as long as the door to that better life is left open, of course they will use it. I do not blame them.

I blame our country for one. . . not closing that door. And two. . . not finding a way to help Mexico be a place where the people want to stay and live. Mexicans do not WANT to live here. They come here only to support their families both here and back home. Most would go back home in a heartbeat if they could survive there. That's why they don't even bother to learn the language. They don't want to live in America.

They make American money and send it home to Mexico to be spent. Most of them work manual labor for cash and don't pay taxes. Hello, economic experts in the White House . . . it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what effect that has on our country.

This is not an isolated event only in California. But those of you who live on the East Coast would be totally shocked to see the extent of the Mexican population and the impact here. I recently went back to Las Vegas to the area I used to live in and it might as well be Mexico now. Not a single sign in English on any store in the area and its rapidly growing and now encompasses 1/4 of the city. It didn't look like that 5 years ago.

This is not ' Little Italy ' in NYC or the Irish population or the Polish, etc that came through Ellis Island and lived in communities and then went out to be a part of America. This is entire areas of people that will NEVER assimilate into this country. Only a few will ever learn the language and unless they were born here they will never become citizens. They are here illegally and simply live in communities that they make into what they left behind. The border areas of Mexico are being occupied by a foreign nation and the president and the White House are not only allowing it . . . they are facilitating it.

I don't understand why. They will wake when its too late.


End of rant.

~


Last edited by Morgan Rowan on Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:27 pm

Basket - I considered that also but until it becomes a hot bed of discussion I think its ok here.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:29 pm

abasketclayse wrote:
I work in a hospital setting too. And have heard for YEARS hospital staff bad mouth all those people who walk in the door without insurance. Using the emergency room as their "doctor". Coming in for their 3rd baby at age 18 - all without insurance. Yep, we COMPASSIONATE Americans (sarcasm) often bad mouth people who aren't as good as "we" are.

Check out the education of the people who are uninsured. Yep, largely uneducated. In this wonderful country. When you are uneducated, you can't read or read well - getting insurance requires forms (to fill out and read), appointments (to get to when you don't have a car or don't know the bus route or have to haul 3 small children to the bus stop in snowy conditions) and a whole lot of rigamarole. Give proof of this, give proof of that. Understand this, understand that. Many CAN'T. Some can.

I could go on and on. I don't buy that we "all want what's best for people". Many are selfish and becoming MORE selfish. Me, me, me.

What we have ISN'T working! It's a problem passed from generation to generation, president to president. No president, no person, no senate, no congress, no state legislature, NO ONE could solve this problem (and others) in a fair way to please even a decent majority. You have to start building somewhere - you have to take a step forward with some direction. There will be roadblocks and detours - and you have to put on your shoes and keep walking. I believe that is what our leadership - not just one person - is trying to do.

AMEN!!! ht ht ht

For me, this is a wonderful, historic day. It may be only a beginning, but it is a beginning.
All I can add is..." There but for fortune go you or I" and not one of us has a lock on today's fortune. In a blink of an eye, everything can change for any of us.
There are people who believe that they have good insurance and they don't want that to change, I do, I don't want to ever hear again of anyone with "good" insurance who reached their lifetime limit of benefits due to years of battling cancer for their life who now has to die because they could never afford to pay privately for their treatment even though they have held good jobs, paid into "good" insurance coverage all their working lives and now through no fault of their own, the battle ends because the insurance CO, says so.
I hope no one who is so against the Health Care Bill because they see themselves as "paying" to help others, ever wakes up one day to find that they are now..."others." ht
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:34 pm

And don't expect any quick results -can't be done, won't be done. It may be YEARS for the general public to see the changes - in fact, as noted above, many changes are scheduled to happen for "years" (2014). But, if you are that child, that family who has tried, that cancer patient or that single parent with a preexisting medical condition, that 23 year old college graduate who can't find a job - these people - and they are many - will be grateful for a chance to get care and be well.

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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:47 pm

I'd like to see things get back to simple. All of this spiraling health care cost stems from modern technology that creates massive amounts of medical equipment that must be used to be a viable office. Can that crap and get back to just caring for sick people. Not everyone needs an MRI, Ultrasound, blah blah blah. Not everyone needs to be in a hospital because they hiccuped and the doctor is afraid of being sued if they don't hospitalize them. And for that matter and this is not a popular belief I'm sure but not everyone needs to be saved at any cost just to say you can.

Maybe its time to get back to the business of dying with dignity when God intended and not after being a drain on your family's emotional well being and the insurance finally runs out.

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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:53 pm

ClaysFayevorite wrote:
abasketclayse wrote:
I work in a hospital setting too. And have heard for YEARS hospital staff bad mouth all those people who walk in the door without insurance. Using the emergency room as their "doctor". Coming in for their 3rd baby at age 18 - all without insurance. Yep, we COMPASSIONATE Americans (sarcasm) often bad mouth people who aren't as good as "we" are.

Check out the education of the people who are uninsured. Yep, largely uneducated. In this wonderful country. When you are uneducated, you can't read or read well - getting insurance requires forms (to fill out and read), appointments (to get to when you don't have a car or don't know the bus route or have to haul 3 small children to the bus stop in snowy conditions) and a whole lot of rigamarole. Give proof of this, give proof of that. Understand this, understand that. Many CAN'T. Some can.

I could go on and on. I don't buy that we "all want what's best for people". Many are selfish and becoming MORE selfish. Me, me, me.

What we have ISN'T working! It's a problem passed from generation to generation, president to president. No president, no person, no senate, no congress, no state legislature, NO ONE could solve this problem (and others) in a fair way to please even a decent majority. You have to start building somewhere - you have to take a step forward with some direction. There will be roadblocks and detours - and you have to put on your shoes and keep walking. I believe that is what our leadership - not just one person - is trying to do.

AMEN!!! ht ht ht

For me, this is a wonderful, historic day. It may be only a beginning, but it is a beginning.
All I can add is..." There but for fortune go you or I" and not one of us has a lock on today's fortune. In a blink of an eye, everything can change for any of us.
There are people who believe that they have good insurance and they don't want that to change, I do, I don't want to ever hear again of anyone with "good" insurance who reached their lifetime limit of benefits due to years of battling cancer for their life who now has to die because they could never afford to pay privately for their treatment even though they have held good jobs, paid into "good" insurance coverage all their working lives and now through no fault of their own, the battle ends because the insurance CO, says so.
I hope no one who is so against the Health Care Bill because they see themselves as "paying" to help others, ever wakes up one day to find that they are now..."others." ht

A thumbs up to all this. I have three kids who finished college. My daughter (master's degree) is home with her second baby, and lost her health insurance when she went on maternity leave. My son (double degree) is freelancing, yup, no health insurance. My third son is the only one with insurance through his company, but that will only last as long as he's employed.

It's not the poor and semi-legals who will benefit from this, it's all those in the middle class that are self-employed, out of work, or work for small companies. Those who are upper class can buy insurance. The poor get medicare and other social programs. The one's that will most benefit from the new legislation is the middle class. The educated, struggling two income families that can't afford health care for themselves and their families. It's was appalling how much my daughter will have to pay for insurance for herself, her husband, and her two kids once her medical insurance times out...and I hate to consider what would happen if her child was born with a handicap and would for the rest of his life have a "pre-existing condition."

How many of these middle income families are going bare?
We pay one way or another.

In much the same way country provides safe roads, a secure nation, education and libraries, fire and police departments, the country will now provide health care along with safe drinking water and food. Somehow, it all fits.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:57 pm

Yes I agree its ridiculous what self-insurance costs. Its also impossible what child care costs. When you impose those two things on someone out of work you legitimately force them into staying unemployed and in the lower bracket where they can get health care and help just so they can survive.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:09 pm

Morgan Rowan wrote:
Yes I agree its ridiculous what self-insurance costs. Its also impossible what child care costs. When you impose those two things on someone out of work you legitimately force them into staying unemployed and in the lower bracket where they can get health care and help just so they can survive.

But what is the alternative? That they not have health insurance/health care? That they trust that everything will work out, and go "bare"? That they leave their 10 and 8 year old at home alone because child care is too pricey?

If someone needs to take advantage of government programs, there is no shame in that. I was on food stamps and in government housing when I was first married. I am forever grateful that it was available.

There is also free GED classes, inexpensive technical college programs available, and I for one would not be adverse to a portion of my tax dollars going to providing child care. (I'd rather see it going there than buying yet another B1 Bomber but that's another discussion....)

An educated, healthy population, no matter what the ethnic diversity, is exactly what I want my taxes to provide for.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:31 pm

Why are you arguing with a statement that says I agree ?

I did not say there was shame in accepting help. Happy you need to read the posts before you always jump to an argument.


Heres my point

Health care and child care are way beyond what the average person can afford. Add to that people out of work with the present economy and you are pushing some into poverty through no fault of their own where they need assistance. The result is everyone pays for it. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be remedied.

I was totally agreeing with you. Lighten up.


~
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:59 pm

Morgan Rowan wrote:
Why are you arguing with a statement that says I agree ?

I did not say there was shame in accepting help. Happy you need to read the posts before you always jump to an argument.


Heres my point

Health care and child care are way beyond what the average person can afford. Add to that people out of work with the present economy and you are pushing some into poverty through no fault of their own where they need assistance. The result is everyone pays for it. It's a vicious cycle that needs to be remedied.

I was totally agreeing with you. Lighten up.


~

Morgan, i went back and read all of your posts, and you have said nothing to indicate what your feeling is on the passage of the bill.

I also didn't see where you were totally agreeing with me, unless you are agreeing that insurance prices for the middle class are crippling high.

This: "It's a vicious cycle that needs to be remedied." Gets to the crux of my quesiton, "How?" The "how" I am seeing is the Health Care Reform Bill that was just passed.

Maybe I should put a Very Happy in there someplace, because I am not starting an argumant, just asking for clarification.

And my remarks were not just addressed to you, but to other concerns expressed on the board.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:19 pm

~
I'm the only one that mentioned needing government help that you jumped on as no shame in that. So it certainly appeared you were answering me.

Why would you say that unless you were assuming I thought there was ? I've been there too.

As for the health care reform. Our health care needs major reform but I'm not convinced this is going to fix any of it. I hope I'm proven wrong. As in all things, we need to get back to basics. I just see more government intervention.

How would I fix it ?

I'd require doctors to perform pro bono work to keep their license. I'd set up free basic health care for anyone who needs it in simple store front clinics manned by nurses and overseen by doctors. 90 percent of what's seen in ER can be handled by a nurse or a physician's assistant. Maybe I'd make a new nursing degree that fit the bill of manning these offices. The offices could provide well baby care, simple illness care, routine physicals for anyone willing to wait their turn. No need to check income, if you want to wait - you get treated. The average person with the ability to afford a doctor would not.

I'd ALLOW the ban on pre-existing conditions clauses to drive down the cost of insurance. People with life threatening diseases and pre-existing conditions should step to another form of insurance that is government subsidized. I'd also get rid of the HMO racket that makes you pay this guy to tell you to go pay that guy.

Insurance companies are a business. They shouldn't be government regulated to death. They should insure who they choose to at a price that allows them to exist. But there needs to be a subsidized tier where other insurance types step in.

Do I see anything like this in the new bill ? Haven't examined it at length but no. I just see more regulations which will require more money to carry out. I also see companies at the brink of collapse that this is undo pressure on.

So thats my two cents - I'm sure a pro could blow it all out of the water as totally impossible.


~
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:11 pm

Morgan Rowan wrote:
~
I'm the only one that mentioned needing government help that you jumped on as no shame in that. So it certainly appeared you were answering me.

Why would you say that unless you were assuming I thought there was ? I've been there too.

As for the health care reform. Our health care needs major reform but I'm not convinced this is going to fix any of it. I hope I'm proven wrong. As in all things, we need to get back to basics. I just see more government intervention.

How would I fix it ?

I'd require doctors to perform pro bono work to keep their license. I'd set up free basic health care for anyone who needs it in simple store front clinics manned by nurses and overseen by doctors. 90 percent of what's seen in ER can be handled by a nurse or a physician's assistant. Maybe I'd make a new nursing degree that fit the bill of manning these offices. The offices could provide well baby care, simple illness care, routine physicals for anyone willing to wait their turn. No need to check income, if you want to wait - you get treated. The average person with the ability to afford a doctor would not.

I'd ALLOW the ban on pre-existing conditions clauses to drive down the cost of insurance. People with life threatening diseases and pre-existing conditions should step to another form of insurance that is government subsidized. I'd also get rid of the HMO racket that makes you pay this guy to tell you to go pay that guy.

Insurance companies are a business. They shouldn't be government regulated to death. They should insure who they choose to at a price that allows them to exist. But there needs to be a subsidized tier where other insurance types step in.

Do I see anything like this in the new bill ? Haven't examined it at length but no. I just see more regulations which will require more money to carry out. I also see companies at the brink of collapse that this is undo pressure on.

So thats my two cents - I'm sure a pro could blow it all out of the water as totally impossible.


~

I nominate Morgan as my next State Senator. This is a plan that could work. May I suggest, however, than instead of a government health plan for those with pre-existing conditions, we offer tax credits to those companies who offer these services, and substantial tax credits to hospitals AND DOCTORS who provide services for those who cannot pay?

I especially love your idea of a nursing license to run clinics. These clinics could be that lifeline, offering sponsorships to local churches and businesses (for tax relief).
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:23 pm

here here Renee

better !

but I'd still shore up the smaller companies that handle the more affordable 'not at risk' care.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:32 pm

Those clinics do exist. Small clinics in neighborhood - very, very poor neighborhoods - often run by med students/ nursing students and a preceptor (a supervising doc).

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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:39 pm

Yes I realize that but there are not enough of them and they have a lot of regulations. I'd make ALL doctors do some time in them or in their office for free. If this meant they have to drive a Lexus instead of a Mercedes then I'm not going to feel bad about it.

They shouldn't be only in poor areas.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:48 pm

Well then for that matter, ALL Americans should be required to volunteer their time.

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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:53 pm

that would be nice but we don't all apply for a license to do our job nor do we necessarily do a job that's needed. Lawyers are required to do this. Other people with license requirements and that fill important life altering needs could also be required to do it.

I do understand the backlash though. But it still seems fair to me to require that as part of what they must do to obtain a license.

On the other hand, I'd quickly cap the amounts they could be sued for also and drive down thier malpractice insurance. That's another area that drives up the cost of health care. Doctor's should only face lawsuits if they have broken a law or acted with malice. They shouldn't be sued for doing thier best and simply being wrong. That's ridiculous.
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:04 pm

The average doctor is spending approx as much of his/her time filling out insurance forms, charting, and keeping track of paper work. 25% of their practice is Medicare, for which they are paid on average 20% of regular payment. They can no longer give out free samples, because the samples need to inventoried, charted, and tossed after a month. The price of meds has risen five fold in the past ten years....for the same meds!

The rich doctor is no longer the norm. More than half the doctors in this country are women. This is not Marcus Welby where the doctor has Wednesdays off for golf at the Country Club, lives in the biggest house and drives a Mercedes. Those are the Insurance execs. The average doctor is in the middle class. And he/she goes into the workforce at the age of 30 after 8 to 10 years of higher education and carrying over $190,000 in debt.

Having doctors work for free is not the answer. It is putting the stress on an already stressed out member of this tirad.

I'm with basket. ALL Americans should be required to volunteer their time. I'd like to see the Insurance companies donate medicines. I'd like to see accountability on the Insurance Companies.
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Morgan Rowan
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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:09 pm

I dont agree about doctors, sorry. I think they are a privileged class. I'm not looking to cost them money - I'm saying lets limit their liability and drive down their health care also.

Doesn't matter anyway - I'm not running the country.


It was just an answer.
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joechgo11



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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:43 pm

abasketclayse wrote:
Well then for that matter, ALL Americans should be required to volunteer their time.

Am I the only amused by the irony of the text?

Nothing personal, basket, but I always get a chuckle out of word play...required volunteerism makes me laugh.


Last edited by Renee on Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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joechgo11



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PostSubject: Re: President Obama and Health Care   Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:44 pm

Wait, that was a joke wasn't it? You don't really think all americans should be required to volunteer? stun
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