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 The Murder of Dr. George Tiller

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PostSubject: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:18 am

I am completely saddened and appalled by this murder. After years of basically being stalked by the O'Reilley Factor, this respected physician was killed and while he was attending church, no less. Way to rile up the "crazies", Fox!
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thegiftsthesame



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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:05 pm

is it possible to discuss the issue ?
maybe ? purdy please ?
without anyone getting upset, angry or offended..

I have been curious about it..


I can't think of a reason why a woman would have
an abortion in the third trimester....

do any of you know of any examples ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:35 pm

DipsyArkie wrote:
is it possible to discuss the issue ?
maybe ? purdy please ?
without anyone getting upset, angry or offended..

I have been curious about it..


I can't think of a reason why a woman would have
an abortion in the third trimester....

do any of you know of any examples ?


Without going into the possible reasons a woman would choose or a doctor would recommend that (that's a separate subject), what bearing does that have on a doctor being murdered for performing abortions???? I am assuming you are not arguing the justification of killing him because he may or may not have performed third trimest abortions.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:02 pm

nope. not justifying at all..
I think it's horrible and senseless...

just trying to understand...

sorry I asked the question.... I figured it was probably a bad idea to try...

...happens to me a lot
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:30 pm

DipsyArkie wrote:
nope. not justifying at all..
I think it's horrible and senseless...

just trying to understand...

sorry I asked the question.... I figured it was probably a bad idea to try...

...happens to me a lot

Yeah, me too!

But I think I saw some older threads here about third semester abortions where you all discussed that issue pretty thoroughly.....maybe you can search back for that discussion or I can find it and direct you to it. (I have been reading some of the older things you all talked about trying to get a feel for topic discussions.)
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:43 pm

alrighty...Pinky....I'll try..

one of these days I'll get caught up... in my reading....
busy busy busy
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:08 pm

DipsyArkie wrote:
alrighty...Pinky....I'll try..

one of these days I'll get caught up... in my reading....
busy busy busy


You can do it, I have faith in ya! I took me a couple of hours to read through this part of the board, but there are lots of answered questions up here....and lots of information. But what the heck do I know. If you want to start a separate thread about third semester abortions, please do....OR since no one else has commented on Dr. Tiller, maybe someone will repeat the answer to your third semester question again here.

Good luck!!!
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:56 pm

I saw an interview with the murderer's ex-wife and she said he basically was completely focused on killing this doctor and any others like him.

I think it's a dirty shame.

I won't comment on the subject of late-term abortions because it's really none of my business in any regard.

I will drop this bomb and then disappear from this thread. I don't believe any person has the right to tell a woman she can't have an abortion if there are reasons why she wants/needs one. It doesn't affect me, and I have no idea what a woman might be going through in her life to consider abortion.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:21 pm

I agree Joe....its so hard for me because....I could NEVER have an abortion.....just couldnt even if I was raped....but I would NEVER judge anyone who has or does because who knows what that person is going through......my Christian beliefs tell me its wrong to take a life but they also tell me not to judge......Im pro life for myself and pro choice for everyone else....

I know its hard to be so both ways....
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:20 pm

Heather and Joe, my thoughts on the subject are the same. I didn't feel that way years ago, but in one of my psychology classes we had to listen to a couple talking about their choices once they found out their baby was going to be born with severe deformities and they made the decision to abort when she was nearly 6 months pregnant. It was so hard for them, and hard for us to hear, but it changed my mind about the whole situation.

But back to the topic at hand, I don't feel it was right to murder the doctor. Something more should have been done to stop this man from killing him when the police were well aware this man had been stalking him. And I guess it is lucky that no one else was hurt since it happened at church.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:39 pm

I agree the man should not have been murdered.....to me he will face his judgement later and no man or woman or anyone has a right to decide when someone else dies...I guess you could say the same for abortion....and I am completely at a loss for how to explain how I feel about it other than what I stated before......I just wish this world wasnt so dark these days...there are hints of light here and there but more and more I find myself so sad with the news and how people are behaving in their lives.....hurting children, elderly, animals.....I mean when does it stop ???
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:17 pm

Its a slippery slope indeed.

Do I believe in abortion ? Personally no.
But does what I believe supercede what others believe and the even BIGGER global question is . . . do I have a better answer for overpopulation, abuse of unwanted children, 'one too many' starvation syndrome, health of the mother issues, drug and alcohol babies, non-viable babies,etc.

nope.

don't.

Sooo that being said.

There is never a right way to murder someone. It was cold blooded murder and it was completely wrong.

But food for thought . . .just as the abortion issue is a slippery slope. . . what do we as a society do with another person who systematically kills young children ? We stop him. We denounce them, we hunt them down and stop them. We even go so far in some states to decide to kill him.
For those that fervently believe that any age fetus is a child and that abortion is the murder of our most innocent, should they truly just go about thier lives and say . . . oh well, its legal.

Again murder is not the answer for me. Ever. Not to stop the abortion doctor. Not to make our lives more convenient. Not to stop a sexual deviant. Murder is simply not the answer for me. God said so in no uncertain terms. Being a government or group of people does not alter that. Taking another life is wrong. Murder is not the answer.

But what is ?

~~
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:45 pm

From what I gather, the late term abortions Dr. Tiller performed were for the most part, women who were carrying babies who would be stillborn. Or in some cases, children who would be born with severe problems that would end their lives within days or minutes of their birth. The women who decided to use his clinic (as well as other clinics throughout the country, I would imagine) received counseling prior to the procedures.

Dr. Tiller was going to be a dermatologist. When his father died, he found out that Dr. Dad had been performing illegal (at that time) abortions. Reading his father's papers, he began to have an understanding of what some women are faced with and he switched his practice.

Since 2006, the O'Reilley Factor has mentioned Dr. Tiller no less than 28 times, referring to him as Killer Tiller and inflamming this issue. In the end, I have to be pro-choice and I have to say that from what I have read, Dr. Tiller seemed motivated by love and compassion. Believing in God as I do, he will now give final answer for his actions and I pray his motivations will grant him mercy.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:07 pm

I'm certainly not questioning his motives. I'm sure there are many good reasons to provide the services he did. I'm simply playing devil's advocate and trying to see all sides.

If the clinic on the corner were destroying month old babies with severe problems or those that could not be provided for, would we then call it murder and be outraged ? Would we then stop the practice with any means possible. Would we even feel morally compelled to not stand by and to stop the murders. And as a group of individuals banned together, would we apporve of sentencing the owner of such a place to capital punishment ?

Again I am in no way condoning murder. Taking another human life is the ultimate sin. Life is created by God and who are we to judge what life has its purpose and what doesn't. And who are we to say what beating heart should stop.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:31 pm

pinky wrote:
From what I gather, the late term abortions Dr. Tiller performed were for the most part, women who were carrying babies who would be stillborn. Or in some cases, children who would be born with severe problems that would end their lives within days or minutes of their birth. The women who decided to use his clinic (as well as other clinics throughout the country, I would imagine) received counseling prior to the procedures.

Dr. Tiller was going to be a dermatologist. When his father died, he found out that Dr. Dad had been performing illegal (at that time) abortions. Reading his father's papers, he began to have an understanding of what some women are faced with and he switched his practice.

Since 2006, the O'Reilley Factor has mentioned Dr. Tiller no less than 28 times, referring to him as Killer Tiller and inflamming this issue. In the end, I have to be pro-choice and I have to say that from what I have read, Dr. Tiller seemed motivated by love and compassion. Believing in God as I do, he will now give final answer for his actions and I pray his motivations will grant him mercy.


Pinky....you just answered my question...from higher up in this thread....thanks :)
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:34 am

Neither Fox News nor Bill O'Reilly had anything to do with this murder. One person made a decision to murder another.

I personally won't cry any tears for this man. I'll save my tears for all the unborn children whose lives were stopped by this man.

Murdering him wasn't right. Neither was the way he chose to live his life. I condemn his murder, but I also condemn the murders the doctor committed.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:04 am

My liberal warning flashers go off when mere mortals use the word "condemn". I love the quote of J. Edgar Hoover:

“We are a fact-gathering organization only. We don't clear anybody. We don't condemn anybody.”

I think the chicks should be a fact-gathering organization.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:48 am

Tiptoeing back in to say that I believe the decision of having an abortion is up to the individual.

I don't believe anyone has the right or legal right to tell another person what they should do. Of course, there's a great divide on this subject because of people's religion.

No one has ever *walked in my shoes.* I wouldn't dare to put anyone down for having an abortion when I don't walk in their shoes either. It's a personal decision for a multitude of reasons; none of which involve anyone else except the person deciding on abortion.

May Dr. Tiller rest in peace.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:57 am

I know it might not sound like it but I agree with Joe. . . it is not up to me to choose. There are certainly good and solid reasons for abortions and it is for each woman to decide. But I will go one step farther and say that I think the proliferation of decisions to terminate as well as the murder itself rest solidly on our inability as a race to embrace the concept of the sanctity of life. A problem that will eventually destroy us all.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:12 pm

[quote="Morgan Rowan"]I know it might not sound like it but I agree with Joe. . . it is not up to me to choose. There are certainly good and solid reasons for abortions and it is for each woman to decide. But I will go one step farther and say that I think the proliferation of decisions to terminate as well as the murder itself rest solidly on our inability as a race to embrace the concept of the sanctity of life. A problem that will eventually destroy us all.[/quote]

In response to the bolded part, I totally agree. Just look at the killing of innocent citizens in Iraq. Or the failure to adequately address the poverty and hunger in the world.

Sometimes, our inability to embrace the sanctity of life could use a bit of a mindset of there but for the grace of God...or as Joe says, walking in that person's shoes.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:20 pm

Oh Joe, you seem like such a nice thoughtful man. You know there are no easy answers, and love and tolerance is what my church teaches me. The prolife/prochoice question is one that can only be made by the person in that situation. It is never an easy decision. Never. It is a decision filled with angst, tears, and terror. It's even called a pregnancy SCARE. We don't talk about flat tire scares, or late newspaper scares. Those are inconveniences. When a woman thinks she might be pregnant (and it isn't on purpose) she is TERRORFIED. It is too easy for others not in the situation to trivialize what the woman is going through.

Abortion is legal in the United States. What Dr. Tiller did was legal. You can work to change the laws if you don't like it, but I can never see a day when abortion, including late term abortion, will not be legal in the United States. Calling people who are doing their job, helping other people during one of the hardest decision they will ever make in their entire lives, murderers, is tantamount to calling those fighting in Iraq murders. They are also doing their job in a very difficult situation.

I do not support the TV talking heads calling our young fighting men murders, not do I support them calling doctors doing legal procedures in the US murders.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:30 pm

you think someone is killing people so you kill him
WTF ? that makes no sense what-so-ever

I know it pales in comparison but it reminds me of
situations I have witnesses

a young child hits someone, lets say his brother
so his mom smacks him and says
'DON'T HIT YOUR BROTHER"....

Rolling Eyes

I'm just as confused as the kid is....
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:32 pm

Happyjoy, bless you. ht My thoughts exactly.
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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 1:06 pm

God said thou shalt not kill. He didn't distinguish between legal and illegal killing. . . murder or killing. The word murder is ' illegal killing '. Soldiers do not murder . . . but they do kill. Abortionists do not murder but they do stop beating hearts. Enter the huge discussion of what constitutes life.

I understand noble causes and good reasons and health issues, etc. But like all things . . .humans make excuses.

War is war. Killing is Killing. Abortion is Abortion.
Is it sometimes necessary ? It would seem that it is. I can only pray that God agrees. My heart says He doesn't. I fear He gave us intelligence enough to find a better way and we take the easy route.

I don't have any better answers but in my opinion if we had the respect for the earth and the respect for the sanctitiy of life that other cultures have we might make very different decisions. Saying there is no better answer is not enough. Maybe we should find one.
Thou shalt not kill.

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PostSubject: Re: The Murder of Dr. George Tiller   Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:59 pm

Two things, I think we must distinguish between the death of soldiers (a tragic consequence of war) and the death of innocents. You're absolutely right, Morgan, when you say death is death. Every death of innocents in this war is one too many. I will absolutely and completely agree with you, but it is the consequence of war and why we must find a better way THAN war. History, however, has shown that war is inevitable with humans, at least for now. Hopefully we will evolve to the point that war won't be necessary.

And although each death of an innocent in war is a tragedy, it can be weighed against the deaths that would have occurred had the intervention (war) not taken place. We can only look to history for those numbers, though, and it's purely academic, since we'd never know for sure. BUT it's also more than an educated guess. Dropping the A Bomb has long been used in this philosophical debate. Yes it was horrendous, but it also stopped the war and the march of the Axis powers. Also, it's been proven that the other side was also developing this bomb, to be used against us. Would less people have died waiting for that, and allowing the Axis powers to take over the world? And yet is anything worth the devastation we wrought in Hiroshima and Nagasaki those days?

Now you see why I hated my philosophy class. These kind of questions will drive you absolutely insane.

But. And this is a big but. The cost of war, though brutal, cannot be compared to the calculated murder of our unborn children. A baby being killed in what should be the safest place, his mother's womb, by the choice of his mother...there is something intrinsically evil about that. No matter the fears, the worries, etc that the mother may face, the baby is innocent. It doesn't deserve to die just because somebody else chooses so.

I do feel there is a gross injustice comparing our fine soldiers with an abortionist who makes his living killing babies. It is an insult to the soldiers. They are sacrificing to make this country safe, to keep us free.

The abortionist is murdering babies.


Not the same thing. At. All.



Now, for the second thing...completely off the wall. I love your new picture Morgan. I really do!
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